First, I must say that I respect everyone's opinions. It is now time for me to say how I feel. It takes alot of talent to be able to sample something and turn it into a track as hot as some of the things Timbaland has done. Whether you people want to admit it or not, Timbaland has changed this industry. Whether you want to face it or not, not everyone can do what Tim can. In no way is Timbaland "God" to me...but he's a muscial genius. No matter how much you hate him, go listen to his music. NO NOT JUST JUSTIN AND NELLY. Timbaland has been around for years, and I have seen more hate coming from the people that don't even know what "The Batchelor" album was or whom the Bassment crew consisted of.
I say, at least give the man time to answer. He's on a tour with hardly any time to even sleep for God's sake. He's not gonna stop what he's being paid to do just to satisfy a "few" people. Yeah that's right, it's a few people. It's a few because yeah this YOUTUBE and WIKIPEDIA, and DEMOSCENE army is big...but the army of dedicated fans is bigger. For every 100 that hates him, There's 500 that don't.
I tried to keep my silence on this since frankly I am one who understand's people are intitiled to their opinions. If he did it then yes you are right, he is wrong. The key word there, is "IF". I also see some of you are turning on him or how you say "losing respect" without even knowing wtf is REALLY going on. It's crazy how people use youtube/wiki as reliable sources, and believe anything anybody says. Truth is -- you can't base the entire man's career off of this one incident. You also cannot believe just anyone. There are so many ways this could have happened...including the person getting paid under the table and just feels ripped off because "loose" went farther than they expected, so they want more.
Some people spend a lifetime trying to get rich off of other's success, or see others fail. You also can't only allow him a week (yes its only been a week since he found out this was going on) while he's going through an extremly chaotic and hectic schedule and expecting him to stop...say omg...and hop, skip, and jump with a response.
I am an artist, if someone steals my work I would be pissed. But If I got on youtube and forums, say some famous graphic artist stole my concept for something....it is crazy how many people would believe me, trash the person's name, and disrespect that person before even hearing his/her side. Tim is finally at a point where people are starting to give him his long over do respect in the industry...what did you think ? That this would happen smoothly with no problems?
30 comments:
Ok, so litle more than a week has passed since the thing went big, what time period would be too long to wait for an answer in your opinion? When should we begin to feel angered for real, two weeks, a month?
From my side, I'm pissed off of the lack of respect from the label, Furtado and Timbalands side for a fellow musician of mine.
Reguardless of if he says anything or not ..which dont get me wrong I believe he should...that still is not proof enough that he is the one responsible IF ANYONE IS for this happening.
Couple of comments. This is not a contest, if Tim is hated or loved more. Even though is a great & loved producer, it does not change the morale of the act. He did wrong, and the evidence is clear for anyone with any ear for music to hear.
Second: Trying to suggest that Janne Suni somehow took money under the table and got greedy after the "record sold well", is quite outrageous. You really don't believe that stuff yourself either, so why add it? Just because some retards (who btw, mostly are not demosceners) made stupid allegations, it doesn't mean you must follow suit. Believe it or not, this is not about money, but respect for fellow producer.
Wikipedia uses reliable sources. The article regarding this controversy has been under strict scrutiny, as can be seen from the talk pages.
Finally: Regardless of if Tim used shadow producers or not (or if some 3rd party made the mistake), he is ultimately responsible for it, the tracks are released under his name.
IMHO Tim should make a deal and apologize, and make it as fast as possible. Trying to kill the story by staying silent will only keep the situation lingering in the headlines.
No one said it was a contest. But the hate mail that is coming from people whom support your side is un-called for. Making this a race issue, threatening Tim, etc. Can you really state that is ok?
And I didn't say that this artist getting paid under the table is what happened. It is a statement that niether you nor I know FOR A FACT what happened. The third party factor is possible.
Timbaland is not the one responsible for clearing samples. His label is. Get mad at his label.
"But the hate mail that is coming from people whom support your side is un-called for."
There are more people upset about this than just demosceners. Every man/woman is responsible for his/her own actions. Enough with the "sides".
"Making this a race issue, threatening Tim, etc. Can you really state that is ok?"
Most certainly it is not ok, any such comment is uncalled for. And while this might be a futile attempt: Most demosceners are very tolerant people, not making a fuss about someone's ethnic background, sexual orientation or disabilities.
Stereotyping is not helping, either side of the debacle.
Hell no it's definitely not OK, idiotic remarks about race, threats and shit really only reflects how twisted some indivuduals are (and I'm sad too that there are too many of them). However I doubt that those comments or mails come from demosceners.
If i remember correctly from various deleted threads on the beat club forum, you were the one that said "don't worry, it'll die down soon" (that was before it got onto Rolling Stone) and "it's finally dying down slowly" (before it got onto MTV & VH-1). Don't you realize that by trying to ignore the issue, you're actually fuelling it yourself? People want answers and statements, and as long as there are NONE given whatsoever (yeah, i bet he's so busy he can't even spare 10 minutes for a statement!) the story will continue to roll and we'll continue to bang the drums! Oh, and by the way, likening Demosceners to racists just because this story makes some random racist pricks crawl from underneath their stones spewing their venom on YouTube isn't quite helping in the dialogue!
Not saying anything and trying to ignore the issue just makes people even MORE curious and is a silent acknowledgement that something IS fishy after all!
Nobody says that Timbaland can't do his own stuff - but the longer he remains silent, the more people wonder if this wasn't the only case!
And if what MTV writes is true ("Timbaland might be guilty of violating his very own first rule of Beat Club — no biting."), then you have to admit that it *is* pretty shameful, if he proclaimed before that biting someone else's music is wrong!
Because let's just face the facts: a) Both "Do It" and the "Block Party" ringtone heavily rip from Tempest's Acidjazzed Evening, which was made 5/6 years earlier. Fact. b) Tempest did not get any money at all, that "he's trying to get more" theory is just complete BS. Ever heard of "contracts", usually signed if some anonymous guy licenses his music to some big musician?. This is also a fact. c) A third fact is that on the cover it says "written by Tim Mosley, Nelly Furtado and" some third guy (not Janne Suni or Glenn Rune Gallefoss!). So one or all three of these people are responsible and owe the public a statement, because their names are on the cover as being the creators of the song!
Who gives a shit whose responsibility it is to clear the samples? Janne didn't see any money nor credit for his stuff, and that's *all* that matters! And since Timbaland's name is all over the CD, it is obvious why he gets most of the blame and should be the one settling the issue and giving statements. Do you buy a Geffen-CD or a Timbaland-CD? You can't just say "It's not Tims responsibility" when in fact his music is VERY WELL his responsibility, and *only* his!
And please don't tell me a *producer* of all people cannot be bothered with 'insignificant' issues like getting his samples cleared (here we remember the thing about "violating his very own first rule of Beat Club"!), because such a person makes a living from producing music for others (usually not in the limelight, like Tim) and earns his money through licensing *his* stuff to others!
oh, btw: I did write a very diplomatic first posting on Beat club that i spent alot of time on to not offend people, explaining that Demosceners are NOT racist at all (this is quite a bold statement to make about a whole group of people, you know!) and that this whole thing got blown up in to "the public vs the RIAA" with Tim and Tempest somehow caught in the middle... It got deleted instantly, care to explain why?
I hope you accept freedom of speech on your own blog on an article on the subject better... Because you know, you cannot really silence teh Intarwebby! ;-)
First of all MY blog is just to express my feelings and is somewhat of a way to release my feelings so I am not here to bicker or debate with any of you people.
I am not here to have ping pong debates, no matter what you say I wont agree with you. So, there has to be a middle medium because all this is gonna do is go back and forth. And frankly I do feel it dying down.
Second I dont run the beat club forum so if you got a problem with ur posts being deleted then take that up with the moderator. I am just a frequent post member. I do not have any responsiblity on that board...then again you all are used to making your asumptions.
I feel it is not a bold statement to say one thing about all of you simply because I am not just talking about the members on youtube's comments. I help maintain Tim's myspace and he gets TONS of racist/hate mail a day. That is why we as Timbaland fans have that "misconception" about you. If you saw some of the mail, you all would be ashamed if you really didn't feel that way. It's out of control and it's crazy.
There needs to be a line drawn at some point. AND btw under the table means most likely there was no contract. Tim didnt even producer Do it...you people arent even looking at the real producer. Its not fair that people are bashing Tim just because his name is all over the cd.
As far as a statement, ever stop to think that maybe he's being instructed not to give one..and he doesn't agree??? You people think this man has freedom like that. No there are attourneys, lawyers, the label, the whole nine and he has to follow their rules most of the time.
Again, I did not start to a blog to have an arguing session. Sharing your opinion is fine because even tho we have different views, I respect you. But TRYNA PLAY ME, talking to me like I'm stupid, or trying to make me feel "salty" by brining up something I said..this is not the place.
Just a point.
Let's assume that ringtone is made by some 3rd party person, and was sold to "zingy" or whatever the one was it was sold to as "original Timbaland" ringtone. Do "zingy" or whatever have a case there against Timbaland? Aren't they cheated in that case?
hmmm. Good point. In my opinion at this moment thought I would say no. But that is soley off the fact that it all leads back to we don't know how that went so I cannot really place judgement.Because if he didn't do it then most definately not.
My point is this. If those other ringtones is made by someone else than Timbaland... Those are sold to Zingy (or whatever it was) as creations of timbaland and then later marketed by zingy as "original Timbaland" ringtones, when infact those are not made by Timbaland.
I guess that scenario would be prefectly ok, if Timbaland was a "brand" instead of an artist.
I'm a demoscener and I must say that I actually respect Timbaland for bringing the beloved SID sounds from our tiny subculture to the world of mainstream pop. The methods could have been a lot better, and the source of the sounds could have been mentioned, but I still don't think there's any use in starting a war about this stuff.
As teh internets is now full of speculation on the issue, and most of it from people familiar with computer music and demoscene, I think we need someone who has insights on "the other side" too. As in, when Mr. Timbo ends his tour and maybe gives a statement, who are the people he usually works with, especially on the ringtones and Furtado-album, and so on. Any similar incidents in the past (not necessarily with Tim), did it result to law-suit/settlement/anything...
I'm sure Tempest and GRG will eventually receive their compensations, but I wonder if we ever get the official statement from producers of the "Do It" song. How would it sound? "It wasn't me(us)?" ;-) "We didn't know this was wrong?", "Who the f... is Sunni?"... I leave the rest for your fantasy.
CreaMD / c64.sk
There's another comment that hasn't been adressed already by my fellow sceners above.
There's a terrible misunderstanding in your post - that demosceners hate Timbaland. I think I can talk for at least the big majority of all sceners when say that we do, in fact, not hate him at all. What however can be said, is that we hate what he did. That's a very, very important distinction you fail to make. Just because I dislike a person's actions, it doesn't necessarily mean I hate him as a person.
Actually, I think most sceners couldn't care less about his music in general. For one, I hadn't even heard of Timbaland before all this, and hadn't the song been released I'd be merrily continued listening to old XM files.
As said in posts above, anyone with at least a little bit of musical ear can confirm for themself that the "Do it" song and the "Block Party" indeed is based on Tempest's work - obviously someone is guilty of plagiarizing.
Even if it wasn't Timbaland himself who actually produced them, he does have the main responsibility for clearing the case, as he in both cases claim to be the (main) original author of the works in question.
Combine that with the fact that the one action considered a cardinal sin in the demoscene community is improper attribution - not giving credits when credits are due - it shouldn't be that surprising that the reaction has been what it has been.
Magnus must be trolling. Just because you haven't heard Timbaland's name you have heard his music (especially nowadays). Back a couple of years ago when Missy Elliot's Under Construction came out, Timbaland was praised all over mainstream magazines and mainstream radio, even here in the European outback. And before that there was that horrible action movie "Romeo must die" and there was some Timbaland on the soundtrack and that was all over the radio... Aaliyah? I assumed everyone (in the demoscene and outside it) knew at least this much. Apparently I was wrong, but so is Magnus.
I respect Timbaland as a producer but also respect GRG and Suni.
Possibly Timbaland's label even tried to clear the sample but couldn't find the copyright owner (within album production schedules) since the original track wasn't released on any label. So they took the risk. That would be a perfectly honest and true response and together with a moderate compensation made to GRG and Suni this could actually turn Timbaland into a hero figure in the 8-bit community.
Please ignore the childish crap written by forum kids. Suni and GRG themselves are not boasting about it on forums.
Anonymous poster that thinks I'm trolling:
I'm definately not trolling, I'm only trying to help explain the point of view of the demoscene.
I didn't claim I hadn't heard his songs, I only said I hadn't heard of him. That's a mountain of difference. And is it that unlikely that a person in the "European outback" who isn't interested in mainstream music, and even less interested in hiphop, doesn't have a clue about american hiphop producers? I think not. And I know for sure that I'm not alone, because I've seen and heard other Swedes ask "Who the -beep- is that?" when they heard of this.
Anonymous poster 2:
That's quite a possible explanation, it is however in no way a justification, as you seem to partially imply. In at least my eyes, it's just as wrong to plagiarize in that case. The right thing to do in those hypothetical circumstances would have been to use another song for the album, or try harder with the sample clearing. Indeed, Janne Suni could even, if he wanted to, deny all re-recording of the tune at all, if he didn't feel like it (this would be pretty childish to do, however).
The compensation shouldn't be any different if the reason was that they were to lazy to clear the sample than if the reason were they just didn't care to even try - his copyright has been equally inflicted in both cases.
I like Furtado's, Missy Eliot's etc. stuff, but never heard of Timbaland. So I understand Magnus. It's probably because r'n'b and hip-hop are also scenes on their own. Anyway, magnus is right about propper atribution. In demoscene,ripping from others was always considered the worst thing to do. Most nowadays music compos (which is a contest of musicians where the winner is voted by the audience) don't allow remixes or covers of others musics.
CreaMD ( www.c64.sk )
Just a point,
Ginuwine, Jodeci, Missy Elliott, Aaliyah, and a very large amount of other artists(http://www.timbotheking.com check under discography) have been produced by Timbaland since as far back as 96. I know you guys dont care lol but just thought I'd bring that up because It annoys me that alot of people think Timbaland just appeared with Justin Timberlake.
On another note, I do respect all of your opinions and it is interesting to see your sides. Yes, there is sides to this because there is a side that believes what I believe, and a side that believes what you all believe. The war should stop though. In the end, we all are humans with opinions. As strongly as you all feel he "stole" it, is as strongly as we feel he didnt. I spoke to someone from Interscope and it sounds as if I was correct about him not being the one that is deciding to be silent. He is being instructed to for this moment...again though that is an assumption.
Of course the best thing to do si to be silent. 'Coz if there is no claim, there is no case. His label waits until legal claims from Tempest or GRG, they would be silly if they did anything now. There is a great analysis of this case by Chris Abbott here: http://www.c64audio.com/timbaland.php It's long, but worth reading. As far as our beliefs are concerned. I believe in authorship rights. And I'm sure Timbaland does too.
CreaMD ( c64.sk )
"Possibly Timbaland's label even tried to clear the sample but couldn't find the copyright owner (within album production schedules) since the original track wasn't released on any label."
This may actually fly as an excuse, but it's a lame one and cannot withstand scrutiny:
a) It is a fact that Tim ripped the SID of GRG, not the MOD from Tempest it is based on.
b) If you play a SID in *any* SID-player (which you need to do in order to steal it!), it shows you the author of the song. This information is integrated the SID and cannot be changed or accidentially lost, as f.ex. with mp3-IDtags!
c) In this case it shows "Glenn Rune Gallefoss". If you enter that in Google, third hit is his CSDB infopage with a valid email address!
Time taken: 20 seconds...
Jeez, "Glenn Rune Gallefoss" is his actual name, how hard can it be to find the person? You can even use a fucking phonebook for christ's sake!
timbachick:
"As strongly as you all feel he "stole" it, is as strongly as we feel he didnt. "
Problem is: There's no denying it was stolen, this is just not a matter of interpretation! Why do you ignore the facts?
a) Tempests Track was released in 2000 (scene.org papers prove it!)
b) "Block Party" (2005) is Acidjazzed Evening with beats laid on top
c) "Do It" (2006) is based on Block Party (you yourself said Nelly wanted that very ringtone IIRC!), and hence on Acidjazzed Evening.
d) The cover says "written by Tim Mosley, Nelly Furtado and (third guy, not Janne)"
e) Tempest did never recieve any money. If he had, Geffen would be suing his ass off for stating the opposite in public!
There's just no "I don't think he stole it" possible with all these facts, when will you acknowledge that?
"I spoke to someone from Interscope and it sounds as if I was correct about him not being the one that is deciding to be silent. He is being instructed to for this moment...again though that is an assumption."
Nice Info. Nonetheless, this does not change the situation itself *at all*! The song has still been stolen, and his lawyers telling him to keep quiet on the subject doesn't improve my perception of him at all, quite the contrary! If you did wrong, admit it, fess up and everyone will be happy! ;-) Especially because the world definately needs more SID music, i have to admit i am somewhat grateful for this! 8)
"First of all MY blog is just to express my feelings and is somewhat of a way to release my feelings so I am not here to bicker or debate with any of you people. "
Excuse me, but i always thoght blogs were for people to see how others feel on something, and that the comment button is inviting people for discussion!
Isn't that why it's called the "blog COMMUNITY"? If everyone wrote blogs just to get their writing onto teh internets and doesn't care what others think of it, it's not much of a "community", is it?
"I am not here to have ping pong debates, no matter what you say I wont agree with you."
That's a nice thing to say. How about some facts or actual logic from your side then, I think i supplied enough of this! ;-) The best you came up with are some really far out theories that are *completely* made up, like that Tempest getting paid "under the hand" thing...
"Second I dont run the beat club forum so if you got a problem with ur posts being deleted then take that up with the moderator. I am just a frequent post member. I do not have any responsiblity on that board...then again you all are used to making your asumptions."
Sorry for making the assumption that a person claiming to be "Timbalands Webmistress" in every single of her posts actually has moderator status on his official Forum... I know it's completely absurd to assume such a thing! ;-)
"I feel it is not a bold statement to say one thing about all of you simply because I am not just talking about the members on youtube's comments. I help maintain Tim's myspace and he gets TONS of racist/hate mail a day."
..and surely THAT has to be all the Demosceners, right? ;-) Because racists dumbasses cannot use Email-Programs. And because racist fucks don't hang around ANYWHERE else than on YouTube!
I wrote you a very lengthy mail explaining about the roots and ideals of the Demoscene. If you have not read that and continue to tell this bullshit about "racist demosceners" in spite of tons of factual evidence to the contrary (did you know f.ex. every Demoparty explicitly forbids racist symbols or productions?), i really cannot help you anymore...
"That is why we as Timbaland fans have that "misconception" about you."
No, let's be honest here: You have this misconception because it's good for your ego and a VERY convenient explanation to say to oneself "these people criticizing my idol, they're just jealous/racist dumbfucks anyway!"
"If you saw some of the mail, you all would be ashamed if you really didn't feel that way. It's out of control and it's crazy."
That may well be true. However, i am pretty damn sure such mails are not written by Demosceners! I cannot vouch for every single one of them, but I do know the mindset of these people on average pretty well I'd say, so just believe me when i say that racism and the demoscene are as far apart as humanly possible! ;-)
"There needs to be a line drawn at some point. AND btw under the table means most likely there was no contract."
Oh *that* kind of "under the table! ;-) I thought you mean the "you don't show up in the credits, but you get some money" under the table!
Seeing how far Virginia is from Finland, it would have to be a REALLY long table if you catch my drift! ;-) I mean: These kinds of contract-less deals (*if* they exist at all in the realm of big $$$ producers!) are negotiated with people you know and that are close to you, not across oceans with anonymous people you don't know! Because people you don't know and with whom you don't have a contract just *might* sue you afterwards, do you really believe Tims record company would leave themselves that vulnerable?
"Tim didnt even producer Do it...you people arent even looking at the real producer. Its not fair that people are bashing Tim just because his name is all over the cd."
Well - who should we hold responsible instead for the theft then? And why them when the credits say Timbo, Furtado and Guy X wrote the song? Please do spill the beans!
"As far as a statement, ever stop to think that maybe he's being instructed not to give one..and he doesn't agree???"
Ofcourse this has occured to me. But that still doesn't make the situation a single bit better!
And I find it a bit hard to believe that Timbaland himself cannot speak out if he *really* wants to. No lawyer in the world can actually *forbid* you to make a statement!
"You people think this man has freedom like that. No there are attourneys, lawyers, the label, the whole nine and he has to follow their rules most of the time."
Has it occured to you that all these people are dependant on HIM? Do you buy the CDs for the label, its attorneys or its lawyers? No, you buy it because of his music! Hence, he has quite some power over these people, and I'm pretty damn sure he's well aware of that and can go against their will if he really feels like!...
"Again, I did not start to a blog to have an arguing session."
Then stop having a blog.
"Sharing your opinion is fine because even tho we have different views, I respect you."
That's good - i respect you, too, and i do understand your motivation! ;-) But still you have to admit a few things before we'll get any further (e.g. that there *has* been theft and that Tim himself is responsible for setting this straight - no matter if he was the one that actually stole it, his name is on the CD so if someone else was it i expect TIM to step forward and say so!)
"But TRYNA PLAY ME, talking to me like I'm stupid, or trying to make me feel "salty" by brining up something I said..this is not the place."
Well, what *is* the place? I would've liked to bring it up on Beat Club, but everything I said was deleted, no matter how diplomatically i wrote it and all the respective threads were closed (remember when you voted against closing the thread to prevent "spilling" into new threads? ;-)
See everyone, because of people like the person above, this is why i feel the way I do about demoseceners.
First of all that is not his "OFFICIAL BEAT CLUB FORUM". get your facts straight b4 you try to "bring" facts to me. There is no official beat club forum anymore....beat club doesnt even exsist anymore...hence the purpose that the top of it there is a HUGE image that says "BEAT CLUB TEMPORARY FORUM" that forum was started by fans and if you took the time to not waste your breath posting pointless bullshit you would have noticed that.
Everyone else has come to me respectfully and until now, I had a different view of you all. But you sir, have changed that. This is why there is a war, because there always has to be someone who has to attack some one.
And you going into an environment where Timbaland fans meet and choose not to hear your opinion, they have the right to decide to delete your posts. You can't possibly say you respect me when you have been the most direspectful person here.
Just because I has a community blog doesn't give you the right to be disrespectful. I have been open to everyone's opinion thus far, but you attacking me somewhat is what is causing me to close down on hearing any of your opinions. Have a healthy sharing of mutual facts and being outright rude is two different things homey.
Hmm...
I think what she meant about having a community blog, but not wanting to argue is understandable. Arguing and talking about the issue are two separate things...
No matter what you say, I am not going to "admit" Tim stole anything until I feel confident that he did. And I don't think he did. I feel someone else is responsible and that someone is the one that should get all of the heat. Your argument may be good, but it is not good "enough".
"No, let's be honest here: You have this misconception because it's good for your ego and a VERY convenient explanation to say to oneself "these people criticizing my idol, they're just jealous/racist dumbfucks anyway!"
You dont know anything about me you know. You're off. I don't think anyone is dumb. I just think it is a dumb action to threaten one over the internet. It is a dumb action to be rude to someone you do not know. You never know who you may cross paths with. I don't look at Tim like just my idol though. Just to inform you, I look at him like my boss. BTW I do know Timothy and alot of other people, to the people that have no clue who I am. So, I don't need to lie to myself to "stroke my ego". I am a grown woman with my own beliefs. I have respected yours, you should at least respect my web territory.
"I feel someone else is responsible and that someone is the one that should get all of the heat."
Sorry Timbalandchick, but If I go to buy art made by someone, I really want to buy art MADE by him. Not made by someone I've never heard of and just sold under Artists name.
If Timbaland sold ringtones to Zingy as his own, and those were made by someone else than Timbaland, then everyone that has bought those "original Timbaland" ringtones has a case against him.
Timbaland need to come forward and clear things out. If he did something wrong, he needs to be honest and "do the right thing". I like his music, and he has given something new to us and changed the whole music scene with his style.
With honesty, he can gain back the respect he is starting to lose.
"Timbaland need to come forward and clear things out. If he did something wrong, he needs to be honest and "do the right thing". I like his music, and he has given something new to us and changed the whole music scene with his style.
With honesty, he can gain back the respect he is starting to lose."
I agree...never said I didn't. If he did do it, he should say something. Actually either way, he should say something.
I'm really surprised that a producer, who has been so succesful, with songs he produced himself (ripped of others? Who knows anymore?), still feels the need to steal for someone. I thought that the Furtado-track was worst rip-off, but then I heard that he also did this ringtone-thing. Basically, he replaced old 8-bit sound with modern drums and called it his own song... OMG as they say.
I think even a hardcore fans of Timbo should be able to admit that Timbo broke copyright law. Admit facts and leave anykind of "Yeah, he influenced this and that", "He has more money than Tempest, he's more important" out. Copyright law has been broken, it's what has happened here.
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